A few ideas worth mentioning, open discussion

Well, I found myself with some free time, to where I decided to type up some ideas, and overall general concerns, and things of this nature. To begin, this is an open discussion, so feel free to critique any ideas I put forward, or bring to light older ideas that were never implemented.

So here is the first idea, and I will separate each idea as it comes, as it would be better to implement one idea at a time, and not swamp the community here with fifty things. So the first one I'm bringing to light is the matter of zero tiers for non-organization leaders.

This idea was spoken of before, I know it has been, but the idea was never typed up or voted on because of general confusion when it was being discussed, but I digress.

Here is the basic outline off how I envision this.

- There will be ONE zero tier allowed per member, this includes organization leaders, staff, and all members.

- To be allowed to possess a zero tier, the member in question must already have a character at tier 1-1. And only a 1-1 tiered character is allowed to "level up" to a zero tier. There would be no skipping tiers.

- Zero tiers cannot be bought with desai! Only those who have shown they can handle a 1-1, and can role play decently will be allowed to have a zero tiered character.

- To achieve a 1-1 character to transform into a 0 tier, the member must go through a series of "tests." These tests would consist of general role play abilities, both social, and combat.

Now, I do not know what would be an acceptable amount of threads to achieve a 0 tier should be. But it will not be a one thread ordeal. Rather it would be a series of threads, let us say five threads, for the moment.

Three threads will be combat threads, with a 1-1 tiered character against a balanced opponent(s). So If you are trying to obtain a 0 tier the three combat threads MUST be balanced, so there is no 1-1 fighting three 4 tiers. Whether the battle threads consist of team efforts, or solo fighting, as long as the battle actually challenges the character in question, it will count.

- The combat threads do not have t be victories! However, like in tier up challenges, winning does help your odds, but it is not the only thing looked at.

The remaining two threads would be social threads, with more than one person.

Here is the tricky part, I know that the staff have their own lives, outside of this forum, just as anybody else would. That is why I am recommending a divergence in policy for this special Zero tier test. Where combat threads do not need a member of staff present in the thread. HOWEVER, once the threads are completed, a staff member must review the threads, and give their approval or denied stamp on the thread, whether it would count towards obtaining a zero tier.

I'm recommending this, because reviewing a thread after it is all said and done is less time consuming then, the current idea, of "review as you go" Furthermore, I believe that this will also reduce some of the work load that the staff already has, if this is implemented, for the fact that Staff can continue with their normal work, and only have to read and review a thread, instead of being an active part of the role play, which then could slow down the process.

Furthermore, The member who is trying to obtain a zero tier MUST keep track of THEIR OWN THREADS. If a member cannot keep track of their own zero tier test threads, then they show they are not responsible enough to control a zero tier, if they cannot keep track of their own five threads required for a zero tier.

At the end of all five threads, and each thread has a staff approval, then the character that is 1-1 may be upgraded to 0 tier. Though, the abuse it you loose it idea would be active.


Here is a small argument for the idea of bringing 0 tiers to the populace, who can operate them.
1- It will give organizations more strategic balance, if they must start weighing the idea that they are no longer the top dog all the time, and diplomacy must be used to keep their strong allies. Also, it would encourage more posting for those who want a 0 tier, and already have a 1-1 tier character. Which can give a boost to activity here, on this forum. Also, it would be more realistic in the long run, as in reality, the strongest person physically, or mentally is not always in power, and it is through their hard work, one way or another, that they can lead people. This idea can also expand current ideas, such as the battle tower, by adding two more levels, for 0 tier fights.


Feel free to discuss this idea, I really like this one, and I want to see it implemented, without causing too much workload for the staff, and members alike, who want to achieve something other than their deadlocked 1-1 tier, if they are not the rare org. leader. So please give me feedback to make this idea great, and hopefully a new part of Era X.

I will also be posting a poll on this after I receive a lot more feed back.

O~O wow much couldn't have put it better my self, like no where near better. i honestly would approve with this idea, although to be the devils advocate and give a fair chance to opposing sides. what of people who get as many 0 tiers in their org, lets say the Espada for example, could get 5 0 tiers, wouldn't that cause an inbalance in the organization system since your only allowed one 0 tier per person?

That is a good argument. However, that's why we regulate the 0 tiers. We do need to keep it balanced. Maybe somehow having a set number of 0 tiers in an org? I don't know, I'm just throwing ideas out there. I really doubt alot of people are ACTUALLY going to get 0 tier, so that might also be a good thing. This should be a good idea, but we also need to look out. People could really take advantage of this. The one 0 tier per person thing is a good idea, for starters. (Why we would allow more than that, I have no idea). Anyway, my two cents, yadda yadda yadda.

The issue with that is some people will get mad cause they will want to get their favorite character to 0 tier, however with an org limit, and their rogue limit filled, they would be unable to tier up that character if in org.

Like I said, throwing ideas out there. There really has to be a way to do this fairly, without people getting angry at us.....I'll come back, if I think of anything. i gots the sleep deprivation going on. XD

No worries Parius, post anything you have when your not tired, lol.

And Kano, to be fair, if one organization grew with such an imbalance of power, (I'm just going to use your example of the espada) Such as the Espada having five 0 tiers in their ranks, where as the other organisations had three or fewer, I would have to say a few things.

One, that would enforce a diplomacy between organizations, and I'm not talking about those so called alliances taken for granted, I'm talking about separate organizations making fair agreements with one another in order to survive. I think it would help encourage a form of role play not normally seen here. And develop interesting site plot, when the espada gain temporary control.

Two, if the organization truly did become too overpowered, to the point role play was discouraged, or joining different races and organizations was on a death dive, I would say the staff should make the final say, such as making event threads have a limit of the amount of zero tiers per faction allowed. So that the fights are still balanced, but the stronger organization had an advantage. It is also possible and take a much more severe route, which I would highly discourage, but in act a form of recruiting freeze, where members who cannot join an organization with their 0 tiers, would be allowed an extra rogue, or what have you until the factions become more balanced.

Three, Encourage mini organizations, as people now do not have to rely on their leaders being the only powerful figure, people can make small groups, with real driving force, that can ease of the tension on bigger organizations, so they do not become unbalanced.

Of course, there are many options but those are ones I thought off te top of my head.


However, I must disagree with a limit per organization for 0 tiers. For the fact that it would take up the one rogue character space, most people already used on other characters, unless the members in question are granted an extra rogue slot, until they can join an organization, or make a smaller one.

And Parius, in your earlier post you kept saying balance, but I have not heard a way to keep it balanced that would not infringe on a member's opportunities. I'm trying to expand the possibilities here, not limit their characters to joining things because of power level.

Also, I think there is some overestimation of power of a zero tier, if two 1-1s can fight a 0 tier, and win, yes 0 tiers are powerful, but with the argument of limiting 0 tiers to organizations, whats stopping an organization from having several 1-1 tiers to counteract a lesser amount of 0 tiers? Nothing, that is why I think the idea of limiting the amount of zero tiers for an organization should be gotten rid of, while it is still only a thought.

I believe this idea is great in theory not in practice,the fact that the power difference between a 1-1 and 0 tier is extremely discouraging,the fact is a 0 tier can mop up a whole thread hopping on one foot with a hand behind its back.We must also consider the other members,0 tiers are exclusive to org leaders for a reason,power balance,to not give members hopes up,If we had 10 0 tiers that would cause a lot of bullshit,we don't need members running wild with 0 tiers in every thread,that's called mental retardation.1-1 Was the norm for RPers here because they know 0 tier is not going to be reached with ease,I can't get past 1-4, for me personally,it would be extremely discouraging if say Orange got a 0 tier,nothing against Orange it would just not way well on my confidence.I just don't feel it is a great idea...

No. 0 tier, even if limited to one per person, would become FAR too common. A normal 1-tier is suppose to be rare enough as it is. Having more than six 0 tiers (one per org) is completely unnecessary, especially with how rare it's suppose to be. I can see maybe one outside of an org being allowed as a forum whole, but that's about it. We've ran into this problem before on RotR, where we had ten or twelve org. leader leveled tiers. We cut down on it dramatically and cut orgs and org leaders' tier. We can't balance without having to infringe on some member opportunities. That is unavoidable (looks at conditions for making a Sinner). And for the record, two 1-1s is not garunteed to win against a 0 tier. They're even terms. Even with the tests, I would trust the majority of veteran members here with a 0 tier. And if all of them gets one (counting the org. leaders), we'll have that same problem of having way too many when it is suppose to be unbelievably rare. Then add in those that gain that trust...what would be the point of even having a anything less than a 1-1? If anything, it'll drive members away because of all the strong characters while at most they'll get a 2-2, maybe a 2-1 starting tier. They'll be intimidated away.

Enforce a diplomacy? What diplomacy besides the alliances? The Sinners want to kill everything, the Espada want to kill/rule everything, same with Kano's org. The "Good" orgs want to protect everything for the most part. There is no diplomacy besides who has the bigger gun. Coordinated assualts (like what Aki would be planning on the Espada and the other two once he knows the other two is organized/exist) between the different orgs is about all. And that's from personalities of the "Evil" org. leaders on wanting to destroy/rule everything. And depending on the leader, one or two will back stab the other! Grand and Arngrim I can see keeping a permanent alliance, but the Sinners, not so much. One can still gain temporary control through members and their power. Which the "Evil" orgs. just don't have currently. The strongest orgs. right now I think is the Vizards and the Coalition.

As to there having a bunch of 1-1s in an org....too bad? It's up to the members to tier up their characters. Currently, these are the tier break downs of 1-tiers in each org.:

Gotei 13: Zero 1-1s, Two 1-2s, Two 1-3s, Three 1-4s, five 1-5s.

Espada: One 1-1, Zero 1-2s, Two 1-3s, Two 1-4s, and a single 1-5.

Kishi: Two 1-1s, One 1-2, One 1-3, One 1-4, and Three 1-5s.

Coalition: One 1-1, 0 1-2s, Two 1-3s, Three 1-4s, four 1-5s.

Sinners: Zero 1-1s, Zero 1-2s, one 1-3, Three 1-4s, and two 1-5s.

Regno Nero: One 1-1, and three 1-5s. Also no 0 tier, but that person almost has to be a puppet of Grand.

Keep in mind that is counting the extremely questionable Keten's characters and the rarely here Kuri's characters. The org's power is determined by the members in it, and they choose where they want their characters. The only way to balance that out is to wing a bunch NPCs, which is something I don't think anyone wants to do. Also, you can always challenge the current org. leader for their slot, and the unspoken rule on that is that the two are to fight as if they are on even terms. You are right that's it's not always the strongest that always wins, but the opposite is true that it's not always the smartest that wins too. That is up to each individual fight/battle.

The biggest point is that the sheer rarety of a 0 tier dictates to there having very few of them. Hell, three slots are open if Keten doesn't get into gear and if we allow one outside of an org. to gain it. And even if you count canon, there has only been four org. leader leveled characters: Ichigo, Yammamoto, Aizen, and that Quincy Majesty dude. Maybe Ginjo could be counted, making five.

I'll address things in order, since it will keep things simple.

Ika Mazi

First of all, a 0 tier cannot mop the floor of an entire thread as easy as you say, you are over estimating the power of a 0 tier, as I spoke of earlier in an other post. As Jun said in his post, two 1-1's are equal playing field against one 0 tier. And apparently you did not read what I have typed fully, as you would know I addressed this idea Jeff. The abuse it you loose it policy would be active for people with 0 tiers, those who join open threads and have their way with power gaming, and ruining other's good fun and role play would be stripped of their 0 tier rank. And possibly some form of punishment, just for the fact that the member in question did such a thing.

Furthermore, it is not my problem if you or other members cannot achieve a higher tier for a character, as mean as that sounds, it would not matter, as only those who can operate a 1-1 tier would even be considered to have a 0 tier in the first place. That is why I also brought up the point of no tier skipping when doing tests for the 0 tier character. Please read what I type entirely and not go off assumptions, and I am saying this for future posts in this thread as well.

Not to mention this, from Jun's post, there are FIVE 1-1's, not including rogues, and some 1-1s are controlled by the same member(s). So this fear of swamping the Bleach Site with fifty 0 tiers is fully unwarranted.

I will ignore the insulation against the idea, Jeff, this is an open discussion and real criticism is appreciated, however you going around saying an idea is mentally retarded will not go unknown. Anything unnecessary word choices from here on will be ignored.


To add on to these fears, you speak as if all new members will flee from the site, because someone has a strong character. First of, everyone started at the low end, at some point, or had a more moderately powered character. Not to be rude, but how many new members actually stick in the history of Era X? Very few have shown they are willing to stay here for extended periods of time, and those who do become part of the community, obviously, and should not fear their fellow members, for having a strong character they earned through tests to achieve.
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Jun

I must first say you cannot juts outright deny an idea, you are not the owner, nor are you the entire member community. Though your ideas are appreciated, please keep in mind that this is a discussion for a possible idea to be implemented for the members here.

Now then on to your points, You say that 0 tiers are a rarity, and in canon this is true, those with immense power are rare. However, this is a role playing site, BASED on the Bleach canon, we have characters that never existed in canon, different site plot, that is slowly evolving, and the fact that this role playing forum has not kept up with the current canon for a while. So why must parts of canon take precedence over everything else, when it comes to rarity of power? When we follow true canon so little of the time. Take for example the organizations, if we were to follow this rarity of power, we would have to cut down the amount of 0 tiers already in existence on this forum, to meet this demand.

Also, this good versus bad organization point is somewhat stretching it. Yes, the sinners might want to destroy the world, the Espada are considered "bad" (even though hollows are forced to devour souls to survive, in general, they are labeled evil by the shinigami, who I must say have done many questionable things as well. Must I mention the dictator-like role the Gotei have right now? Saying the end result is good, regardless of the actions to reach the result in itself can be considered bad.

As much as I would like to debate on the history of good and evil and all that is philosophy, this has little to do with balancing an idea, rather than changing the subject matter.

Also, the questionable members that have been here for long periods of time, would have the chance to have a 0 tier, just for the fact they proved themselves of having a 1-1 tier, if they don't post in forever? That's their own problem, it will take them all that much longer to achieve something stronger than a 1-1. This is not to forget monthly activity checks, where those who don't post in those are stripped of their characters and organization slots.


Also, as I responded to Jeff, please read my posts in its entirety, you speak of the strongest versus the smartest not always winning, this is true, but that is what I brought up, so I don't understand why you are trying to use it in your points to justify not having a 0 tier who is not outside an organization.

Moreover, winging a bunch of npcs? reality isn't balanced, this forum isn't balanced, if it was all organizations would be on equal footing, where as of now they are not.

Your not understanding me Orange,the fact is that your discouraging weaker members with the idea,I completely agree with you Jun if we really wanna say Jun doesn't have that authority I am terribly sorry to say you don't have the power to say such.Rena leaves him in charge when she is gone with Kano.He might as well be an admin and he has more experience with this type thing than anyone Orange.Also if a 0 tier is as strong as Aizen look at what Aizen was able to do at full power,it would be decimating,and Orange you just made yourself seem like a hypocrite,you want to raise activity you say but chase off newer members because they don't stay?That's retarded making this a more hostile environment will make less of them stay, thus lowering activity and face it,no one wants to RP the same people until the end of time,look down the road and without new members,our members lose interest the site dies.I am not saying that implementing this WILL kill the site,but if we fuck it up which is way to hard not to do it will.

This is my last warning, if you cannot keep a civil tongue in a discussion, I will bring this forward to staff, whether you disagree with the idea or not, your immaturity by insulting an idea, instead of bringing better criticism to the table, will be brought up by me. This is my last warning, if you cannot keep your unneeded comments to yourself, action will be taken to the best of my ability.

Now then, let me begin.

Again, you overestimate the power of a zero tier, Jeff, by comparing canon strength characters in a forum based environment, you are comparing two things which should not be compared in such a way. As with Aizen, yes he beat up plenty of people, it was god mod by forum standards, just the same as Ichigo's repeated actions throughout the manga/anime. A 0 tier can take on two 1-1s, enough said, taking on three 1-1's would be doable, but with a hude disadvantage for the 0 tier.

Also, your argument with the fact of new members leaving has nothing to do with an idea that has not even been implemented yet. New members have stayed for short periods of time then left of their own accord, for their own reasons, and the ones who actually decide to stay are the one's i'm targeting with this idea. If a new member leaves after ten posts, it is not my problem. However if a new member decides to stay after their role play experience, then this idea is a new thing to strive for those wanting to obtain something more than the restrictive tier system at the moment. And we cannot forget the post limits which are in place, so a new member would not be able to obtain a 0 tier for quite a while, especially if they are not from a past forum, and have little experience.

Just because I say no, doesn't mean I speak for everyone. It is my opinion. Just because I deny the idea doesn't mean it won't pass. To that end, I still deny the idea. Some of my things were in relation to Jeff too, I just realized.

Not entirely. Some liberties can be taken for the sake of balance and sheer common sense. Ichigo would be the rogue with friends. Yamma, Gotei 13. Aizen, Espada, Quincy Majesty dude, Quincy. Ginjo, the actual human org. In each case, they were/are a leader and thus the most powerful. The reason I may be inclined for one outside of 0 tier is in Ichigo's case, as he's not a part of the Gotei 13 nor the Vizards, just allied with them. To balance out the orgs. here, another was added, thus another allowed. Otherwise, we would have just enough. Five in canon, five here, which we still have until Kano's org gets one. Some lenientcy can be taken, but not a lot, hence the extra org. and my willingness to maybe allow one more than that. You're also implying that the canon is worthless and thus should not be used to dictate anything, when in some things it certainly should, such as on this issue. If we don't stick with some canon precedance, than this isn't Bleach.

Either way, they are seperated into good and bad. No organization that is "good" can claim to have not done some questionable things. So your point is moot. My point on the diplomacy is still uncontested. The goals of each side contradicts the other, there is no diplomacy besides killing each other. Rogues just do whatever they want.

The way it was being talked was like it was meant to balance things out, which it doesn't. That's why I mentioned the winging NPCs. I also just mentioned Keten and Kuri so that it would be known that I counted their characters, despite their lack of activity. What you say is true that the orgs. are not balanced. Hence also why I mentioned the winging of NPCs. And why I said "too bad" on the argument of having a bunch of 1-1s in an org. to counteract their org. leader. But at least a 1-2 can still take on a 1-1. Wheres it would take several 1-tiers, especially of the lower leveled, to take on a 0 tier. We don't need a bunch of them in an org. Especially with our limited member base.

It doesn't increase activity, it just opens up another power level for people to reach. And we don't need to convolute the site with 15 0 tiers. We're not Platinum Hearts (Last I knew, they have more than that, at least six each staff member alone). It is discouraging to realize that mostly everyone barely have any characters around your level to RP with for an even fight. Some will stay, some will leave, there's no helping that. As Jeff said, it may not kill it, but to add to it, it may not hurt it or improve it at all either. It could go either way. His point, Orange, is that it has the decent possibility of driving new members that might stay here away.

Okay then, I do believe this is mentioned in the post limits. Your tier may override the post limits. Actually it is stated right there. So it won't take as long as you think. They just need to abide by the tier up rules. And just to clarify, Kano is in charge of the forum this time, instead of me.